• M

  moshe -9 years ago

  I am not disagreeing with u -- show care - etc., no argument
  there. But oy... till what age??

  MY POINTS APPLY ONLY TO ZAL LEVEL AND UPWARDS. Are we still
  going to harp on that the failure was because his mashgiach wasn't nice??!!

  The kid arrived in yeshiva with a "pre-existing"
  condition -- ungeshtopped, TV, movies, goyishe music - issues with his parents,
  and does not plan on following the rules.. -- NOW the mashgiach should say
  "Good Morning."

  Now, I LOVE him, but that doesn't mean his being in this zal
  is going to work -- can u fathom that??

  Good morning - how r you? create warmth...

  Tell me – Rabbi YY. How were your shiurim in chassidus 7:30
  in the morning. Packed? Full attendance..? nah, SORRY, i don't think so..

  I imagine all your warmth in the world didn't make all that
  difference... v'dal...

  Are you for real??!! Rabbi JCOBSON.

  we have a free world today, i have talmidim that came to
  tomchei temimim li'chatchilo with the plan to go to the Israeli army,
  ..college... whatever, i love them all, and try to be good with EVERYONE ...but
  nothing changed their mind. it's the exception where there's a change. I can
  tell u - from reality...that they come with their minds made up. Now, we're
  "fighting" an uphill battle.

  after a certain age YOU NEED to look at it like a shiduch. The
  bochur with the yeshiva, the yeshiva with the bochur. Discuss BOTH sides of the
  relationship, what the hanholo will do for the bochur, and what the bochur nemt
  oif zich. All other talk is a waste of time. Until we start talking the shprach
  of the bochurim taking responsibility we're all wasting time.

  OY, I listened to u -- and u went from bad to worse...

  I agree money fines are LUDICROUS.

  But ask yourself this question - the stories that u
  mentioned were people that had issues with the discipline issues - not the
  learning...so turn it the other way around -- how is it that we still have
  discipline issues at this age??!! Ludicrous...

  The parents and the bochur AGREED to certain terms - now,
  he's complaining that he's treated like a baby --

  You offered NO SOLUTIONS --

  What to do with the people that r simply not interested??!!
  INSPIRE THEM...do me a favor...

  My friend, the main problem in lubavitch - is, that u have a
  bunch of "experts" in education that haven't taught a live class on a
  steady basis in the last 10 years, and think they have answers.

  From 16-17 up - the kid has to take some responsibility - otherwise
  - iz duss nit kain chiniuch. and farkert fuun kol shitas chabad..

  And the main point is - U CAN'T HAVE ONE PROGRAM THAT'S
  GONNA BE FOR EVERYBODY - OR ELSE YOU'RE FAILING EVERYBODY..

  So, the only solution is a variety of programs..

  oh, so now R Markowitz says the kid has to be assessed.. and
  if it's ADD?? now what? expect him to keep seder from 7:30 a.m till 9:30 p.m.

  The teachers' have to help the kid...BUT AT YESHIVA GEDOLA
  level we need to find the right shiduch..

  Melbourne just watched the yud beis tammuz farbrengen of mem
  aleph. 1981.

  you must watch it. the way he describes liberal ideas of
  chinuch and the churbonos it has wrought. shocking. .. Bikitzur you'll see
  exactly where everyone went wrong. victim mentality. spoiled etc etc

  But Jacobson knows better.

  There's a G-d.

  give the world a hug...

  and a kiss...

  tell them it's all good. ...

  Listen to that sicha with a thought that you just MIGHT be
  wrong. ...

  but don't worry i
  don't mind if you keep your ideas. I'm big into agree to disagree. ..

  but please don't tell me what the Rebbe says. .....

  agav - ur vort that everyone is interested is so beyond the
  pale....

  that's why in the hagodoh we have tohm, she'aino yodaya
  lishoil and...

  but they're all tzadikim!!! v'amaich kulom tzadikim?? -
  chochom, we know that... of course BI'ETZEM - but we're talking bi'golu...

  all the people talking in shul during krias ha'torah are
  tzadikim who really WANT to be listening to kria, it's because the rabbi didn't
  show them the beauty etc. - WHAT is wrong with you??

  seriously..

  when a person's child who's 23 is gonna come along and say
  they wanna marry a more "with-it/cool" person -

  ur gonna say "marry pinya korf" -- the Rebbe says
  that's what you REALLY want..so does the Rambam!!! the only reason ur getting
  married is bc it's gonna bring u closer to Hashem!! and that's what YOU want!!

  here's only one word which is noygaya to START:
  RESPONSIBILITY...

  on EVERYONE's part...

  agav, u are 1,000% right

  that the whole chinuch should be BASED and permeated with
  love..

  and there is no disagreement there..

  but chanoch li'nar AL PI DARKOY - ha'GOLU - itself proves u
  wrong - like markovitch said - for many it's about the "feel-good" /
  happy yeshiva experience .. for others it's not primary -

  they want brinwa - chassidish - farkvetcht

  others want tfas..- mishichist

  others want a shiur from the rosh..- tifer nigleh...

  each should go where they want - and agree to the particular
  conditions of each place...

  by the way the shimon
  shkop story was awesome. ..

  I'm talking ONLY from 17 onwards. ..the boys going to
  yeshiva has to be

  BIRTZOYNO. Imagine somebody going to the Israeli army
  complaining about discipline. ...ridiculous. .

  zelbe zach doh. like Markowitz said, Every place has their
  ethos etc for those who want the full tomchei temimim program they need to read
  kuntres eitz chaim..

  the Rashab wrote in his tzavo V'ain reshus for ANYONE to
  change it. .... check it out. ..

  there are sichos from the Rebbe where he says the reason the
  shver printed it in America is bc nothing has changed. .. i think he said it
  lamed zayin

  sorry once you agree that a bochur CAN be kicked out... which
  of course

  any serious person will admit to after a discussion of maybe
  three minutes MAX.. Then the only question is who decides. as the Rebbe said a
  thousand times al pi askonay chabad al asar li'hachlit.. or al pi atzas
  ha'hanholoor al pi reshis ha'hanholo...

  so Jacobson is gonna find the 4 stories where the Rebbe
  didn't answer that binigud to the
  thousands that he did..

  the trouble is the matzev is getting worse by the day. . there
  are stories of bochurim physically preventing - "assaulting" -
  hanholos from trying to carry out their duties. ...

  the future of the full on program will be only for those
  that WANT it. .. they WANT to be woken up to come etc..... for others we'll
  have yeshivas accomodating their level. .. no problem. ...

  no one's right or wrong. it's about a shiduch. ..

  sorry the Rabbi can't inspire the baal haboss if the baal
  habos walks out of the shul when the rabbi starts speaking. ...

  if you think the Rebbe would blame the mashpia for a 19 yr
  old bochur who sleeps in every day bc
  his shiur is not inspiring enough. ..

  i have no words. .. have you forgotten life in yeshivah
  completely?? yoel's Friday night shiur chovevay winter 80 bochurim all sleeping except maybe 5 or
  6... yoel's fault? ???

  come on man grow up. in
  the secular world people taking law, medicine, flying 20 million dollar jets...

  and here we have smart people like you saying it's because
  we didn't give him a warm good morning. Or the shiur wasn't inspiring. ..

  Y'know the trouble is we've repeated the same stupidity the
  past 40 years and you see how successful that's been. ...

  for any yeshiva to be successful it needs to be a JOINT
  operation. .

  think shiduchim. ..

  in andereh verter the Rebbe is saying you need to
  de-secularise the chinuch hear the way the Rebbe speaks vee elteren villen nit
  heren ah shlechteh vort veggen de kinder. .

  they have rights! !!

  kumt Jacobson un zugt
  but the Rebbe said that even the goyim yearn for G-d ruach ho'odom. ..

  but chochom the Rebbe is real

  he says yetzer lev ho'odom etc

  Otherwise luzt er de yetzer ho'ro mispashet zyyne mer un
  mer...

  blows your theories out of the water. .

  you love him but no liberal shtusim he needs to be told this
  is bad and wrong. ..

  smiling and good mornings and no consequences. .and all is
  lost....

  but Rebbe don't speak like that it's so negative. ...

  Li'chaim listen to the sicha. . you'll see what's chinuch.
  ..

  i didn't even remember that sicha at all... he describes
  kids physically hitting their parents. ..

  all a result from kids being brought up with zero sense of responsibility.
  .and being rewarded for doing nothing etc. listen to the sicha

  Reply to this comment.Flag this comment.

• M

  moshe -9 years ago

  I am not disagreeing with u -- show care - etc., no argument
  there. But oy... till what age??

  MY POINTS APPLY ONLY TO ZAL LEVEL AND UPWARDS. Are we still
  going to harp on that the failure was because his mashgiach wasn't nice??!!

  The kid arrived in yeshiva with a "pre-existing"
  condition -- ungeshtopped, TV, movies, goyishe music - issues with his parents,
  and does not plan on following the rules.. -- NOW the mashgiach should say
  "Good Morning."

  Now, I LOVE him, but that doesn't mean his being in this zal
  is going to work -- can u fathom that??

  Good morning - how r you? create warmth...

  Tell me – Rabbi YY. How were your shiurim in chassidus 7:30
  in the morning. Packed? Full attendance..? nah, SORRY, i don't think so..

  I imagine all your warmth in the world didn't make all that
  difference... v'dal...

  Are you for real??!! Rabbi JCOBSON.

  we have a free world today, i have talmidim that came to
  tomchei temimim li'chatchilo with the plan to go to the Israeli army,
  ..college... whatever, i love them all, and try to be good with EVERYONE ...but
  nothing changed their mind. it's the exception where there's a change. I can
  tell u - from reality...that they come with their minds made up. Now, we're
  "fighting" an uphill battle.

  after a certain age YOU NEED to look at it like a shiduch. The
  bochur with the yeshiva, the yeshiva with the bochur. Discuss BOTH sides of the
  relationship, what the hanholo will do for the bochur, and what the bochur nemt
  oif zich. All other talk is a waste of time. Until we start talking the shprach
  of the bochurim taking responsibility we're all wasting time.

  OY, I listened to u -- and u went from bad to worse...

  I agree money fines are LUDICROUS.

  But ask yourself this question - the stories that u
  mentioned were people that had issues with the discipline issues - not the
  learning...so turn it the other way around -- how is it that we still have
  discipline issues at this age??!! Ludicrous...

  The parents and the bochur AGREED to certain terms - now,
  he's complaining that he's treated like a baby --

  You offered NO SOLUTIONS --

  What to do with the people that r simply not interested??!!
  INSPIRE THEM...do me a favor...

  My friend, the main problem in lubavitch - is, that u have a
  bunch of "experts" in education that haven't taught a live class on a
  steady basis in the last 10 years, and think they have answers.

  From 16-17 up - the kid has to take some responsibility - otherwise
  - iz duss nit kain chiniuch. and farkert fuun kol shitas chabad..

  And the main point is - U CAN'T HAVE ONE PROGRAM THAT'S
  GONNA BE FOR EVERYBODY - OR ELSE YOU'RE FAILING EVERYBODY..

  So, the only solution is a variety of programs..

  oh, so now R Markowitz says the kid has to be assessed.. and
  if it's ADD?? now what? expect him to keep seder from 7:30 a.m till 9:30 p.m.

  The teachers' have to help the kid...BUT AT YESHIVA GEDOLA
  level we need to find the right shiduch..

  Melbourne just watched the yud beis tammuz farbrengen of mem
  aleph. 1981.

  you must watch it. the way he describes liberal ideas of
  chinuch and the churbonos it has wrought. shocking. .. Bikitzur you'll see
  exactly where everyone went wrong. victim mentality. spoiled etc etc

  But Jacobson knows better.

  There's a G-d.

  give the world a hug...

  and a kiss...

  tell them it's all good. ...

  Listen to that sicha with a thought that you just MIGHT be
  wrong. ...

  but don't worry i
  don't mind if you keep your ideas. I'm big into agree to disagree. ..

  but please don't tell me what the Rebbe says. .....

  agav - ur vort that everyone is interested is so beyond the
  pale....

  that's why in the hagodoh we have tohm, she'aino yodaya
  lishoil and...

  but they're all tzadikim!!! v'amaich kulom tzadikim?? -
  chochom, we know that... of course BI'ETZEM - but we're talking bi'golu...

  all the people talking in shul during krias ha'torah are
  tzadikim who really WANT to be listening to kria, it's because the rabbi didn't
  show them the beauty etc. - WHAT is wrong with you??

  seriously..

  when a person's child who's 23 is gonna come along and say
  they wanna marry a more "with-it/cool" person -

  ur gonna say "marry pinya korf" -- the Rebbe says
  that's what you REALLY want..so does the Rambam!!! the only reason ur getting
  married is bc it's gonna bring u closer to Hashem!! and that's what YOU want!!

  here's only one word which is noygaya to START:
  RESPONSIBILITY...

  on EVERYONE's part...

  agav, u are 1,000% right

  that the whole chinuch should be BASED and permeated with
  love..

  and there is no disagreement there..

  but chanoch li'nar AL PI DARKOY - ha'GOLU - itself proves u
  wrong - like markovitch said - for many it's about the "feel-good" /
  happy yeshiva experience .. for others it's not primary -

  they want brinwa - chassidish - farkvetcht

  others want tfas..- mishichist

  others want a shiur from the rosh..- tifer nigleh...

  each should go where they want - and agree to the particular
  conditions of each place...

  by the way the shimon
  shkop story was awesome. ..

  I'm talking ONLY from 17 onwards. ..the boys going to
  yeshiva has to be

  BIRTZOYNO. Imagine somebody going to the Israeli army
  complaining about discipline. ...ridiculous. .

  zelbe zach doh. like Markowitz said, Every place has their
  ethos etc for those who want the full tomchei temimim program they need to read
  kuntres eitz chaim..

  the Rashab wrote in his tzavo V'ain reshus for ANYONE to
  change it. .... check it out. ..

  there are sichos from the Rebbe where he says the reason the
  shver printed it in America is bc nothing has changed. .. i think he said it
  lamed zayin

  sorry once you agree that a bochur CAN be kicked out... which
  of course

  any serious person will admit to after a discussion of maybe
  three minutes MAX.. Then the only question is who decides. as the Rebbe said a
  thousand times al pi askonay chabad al asar li'hachlit.. or al pi atzas
  ha'hanholoor al pi reshis ha'hanholo...

  so Jacobson is gonna find the 4 stories where the Rebbe
  didn't answer that binigud to the
  thousands that he did..

  the trouble is the matzev is getting worse by the day. . there
  are stories of bochurim physically preventing - "assaulting" -
  hanholos from trying to carry out their duties. ...

  the future of the full on program will be only for those
  that WANT it. .. they WANT to be woken up to come etc..... for others we'll
  have yeshivas accomodating their level. .. no problem. ...

  no one's right or wrong. it's about a shiduch. ..

  sorry the Rabbi can't inspire the baal haboss if the baal
  habos walks out of the shul when the rabbi starts speaking. ...

  if you think the Rebbe would blame the mashpia for a 19 yr
  old bochur who sleeps in every day bc
  his shiur is not inspiring enough. ..

  i have no words. .. have you forgotten life in yeshivah
  completely?? yoel's Friday night shiur chovevay winter 80 bochurim all sleeping except maybe 5 or
  6... yoel's fault? ???

  come on man grow up. in
  the secular world people taking law, medicine, flying 20 million dollar jets...

  and here we have smart people like you saying it's because
  we didn't give him a warm good morning. Or the shiur wasn't inspiring. ..

  Y'know the trouble is we've repeated the same stupidity the
  past 40 years and you see how successful that's been. ...

  for any yeshiva to be successful it needs to be a JOINT
  operation. .

  think shiduchim. ..

  in andereh verter the Rebbe is saying you need to
  de-secularise the chinuch hear the way the Rebbe speaks vee elteren villen nit
  heren ah shlechteh vort veggen de kinder. .

  they have rights! !!

  kumt Jacobson un zugt
  but the Rebbe said that even the goyim yearn for G-d ruach ho'odom. ..

  but chochom the Rebbe is real

  he says yetzer lev ho'odom etc

  Otherwise luzt er de yetzer ho'ro mispashet zyyne mer un
  mer...

  blows your theories out of the water. .

  you love him but no liberal shtusim he needs to be told this
  is bad and wrong. ..

  smiling and good mornings and no consequences. .and all is
  lost....

  but Rebbe don't speak like that it's so negative. ...

  Li'chaim listen to the sicha. . you'll see what's chinuch.
  ..

  i didn't even remember that sicha at all... he describes
  kids physically hitting their parents. ..

  all a result from kids being brought up with zero sense of responsibility.
  .and being rewarded for doing nothing etc. listen to the sicha

  Reply to this comment.Flag this comment.

  • THS

    tzvi h shusterman -2 years ago

    hi..., (we should really start with your style - oy vey, really!?, grow up vchulu...) 

    if I may say, the problem in your article can be sourced to the comparison you made of the bochurim in yeshivah to soldiers in the army,

    a lot of bochrim get the feling that they are working for someone- hanhalah, the magid shiur (-which in your wording would be the commander of the army) 

    the point Rabbi YY is saying is that you have to get it into the bochrim's heads that yidishkait is the best thing we would want to do in our life 

    learnig in yeshivah is about OUR conection with hashem not hanhalah 

    and if that is the point that is being brought across then what will follow will be speaking to the bochrim in a real way. practical, not just reading out of sefarim but rather I live this way cuz i think that it is the right lifestile and I want to convey that lifestile to you 

    its a real living thing - teaching me how to live as a jew making me understand that I play a central point in this world to make a dirah betachtonim and if so, I need to learn and think and discuss for real about how am i going to do this in this world with all the garbage out there, and for that i need to learn how to daven to conect to hashem my sourse of life and to have a real conection i need to learn torah to conect to him in the greatest way, and also so I can learn what as a jew is my divine mission in this world- torah and mitzvos and to bridge the gap in-between text in seforim to living a day to day torah life - not just a factory that produces adults, that all adults had to go through, or even worse a storage place for bochurim for like 20 years of your life with no practical help for the "real life" when he gets older

    and if that point wasn't brought through and instead just more and more knasim and petch for coming late and not living acording to your (-hanhalah's) expectations then the outcome will be (if your lucky) that he gets it- he has to come to seder cuz if not he is going to get a knas (in muser lingo: burn in...) but once he leaves he doesn't have to work for the hanhalah or anyone so finally he is free and doesn't have to do seder, learning, and ultimutly Yiddishkeit ch"v 

    cuz it has nothing to do with him 

    the point is not that talmidim never need consequences, when a kid is young he needs consequences to get him to do stuff and when he is older sometimes also, but even as a kid (and more and more as he grows up) there has to be a chinuch on what we are doing and it should gradually change, that the drive to Torah is a chinuch based understanding of the significance of what you are doing, not because petch or lollipops...

    but the difference is that it (-the at sometimes needed knas) comes after he got an understanding of what yeshivah is all about and you teach in that real and practical way so when need be that you calld him over and gave him a consequence (when needed) it can actually help, and not just make him feel not wanted (which is a hemshech of feeling that he is here for hanhalah -and now they don't need him anymore) 

    and the same goes for changing a bochur to a different yeshivah for the benefit of your yeshivah and him sometimes it is a must but with care and figuring out where he should go not just dumping him- "oh you are not good for my yeshivah, so bug off" not that a yeshivah is not supposed to be like a shiduch but that the "shadchan" should care and respect 

    and with that comes changing the curriculum sometimes for specific bochurim and understanding what they came to yeshivah for, like the rebbe explains that yeshivah is supposed to teach us how to be Frum Yidden- yerei shamayim and not just roshei yeshivah

    so if it takes learning a different part of torah than the "system" like halacha or nach etc. to give him a chayus in torah and Yiddishkeit we have to really look into it and figure out what learning will be the best for him without him underestimating himself and therefore not maxing his potential 

    p.s. I think that sometimes it is more valuable that instead of "agreeing to disagree" , to when listening to someone speaking not to listinon to what they are saying rather to what he is trying to say,- to his point he is trying to bring across which sometimes out of desperateness to squeeze his thoughts in words to convey it to you he uses extreme words and when you get the point what he is saying you can reword it. for example, if he is saying that there is no help in $ consequences you have to understand that there might be a point sometimes in some cases but his point is that if there is not a hakdamah of true chinuch to that knas and an evaluation of the individual case - is this really the right thing for this bochur, then it can be very destructive to make him feel that he owes you for not coming to seder. thank you for the understanding

    and thank you rabbi YY for such an important shiur

    Reply to this comment.Flag this comment.

• AN

  abraham niyazov -9 years ago

  really nice show,very informative,amazing how you compact so much stories,insights,lessons all into 1 hour,btw
  nice vort on why hitting rock was ok first time but not in 40th year,it answered one of the questions i had from previous shiur regarding Rogochovers take on the staff and hitting the rock,,
  yasher koach
  Avraham

  Reply to this comment.Flag this comment.

Rabbi YY Jacobson

• June 27, 2015
• |
• 10 Tamuz 5775
• |
• 2075 views

Related Classes

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  2 min

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  1 hr 7 min

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• 

  1 hr 41 min

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  18 min

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