• Anonymous -1 year ago

  is there a possibility that Deena wanted to go out and influence the other girls to the good path? like do kiruv with them? 

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• MS

  Moshe Shemtob -3 years ago

  If Deena went to shechem for good cause why hashem let her to be trapped by shechem don't we say if someone wants to do a mitzva he or she doesn't get harmed and be protected. If Yaakov made mistakes why Deena should get punish?

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• CH

  Chaya Hornstein -3 years ago

  THANK YOU!!!

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• Anonymous -4 years ago

  This Pshat that it is positive is against chazal see the following medresh: (however, that dina had good intention is true see reference daas torah below)

  בראשית רבה פ׳:א׳

  וַתֵּצֵא דִינָה בַּת לֵאָה (בראשית לד, א), (יחזקאל טז, מד): הִנֵּה כָּל הַמּשֵׁל עָלַיִךְ יִמְשֹׁל לֵאמֹר כְּאִמָּה בִּתָּהּ, יוֹסֵי מְעוֹנָאָה תִּרְגֵּם בִּכְנִישָׁתְהוֹן דִּמְעוֹנָא, (הושע ה, א): שִׁמְעוּ זֹאת הַכֹּהֲנִים וְהַקְשִׁיבוּ בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל וּבֵית הַמֶּלֶךְ הַאֲזִינוּ, אָמַר עָתִיד הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא לִטֹּל אֶת הַכֹּהֲנִים וּלְהַעֲמִידָן בַּדִּין וְלֵאמֹר לָהֶם לָמָּה לֹא יְגַעְתֶּם בַּתּוֹרָה, לֹא הֱיִיתֶם נֶהֱנִים מֵאַרְבַּע וְעֶשְׂרִים מַתְּנוֹת כְּהֻנָּה, וְאִינוּן אָמְרִין לֵיהּ לָא יָהֲבִין לָן כְּלוּם. וְהַקְשִׁיבוּ בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל, לָמָּה לֹא הֱיִיתֶם נוֹתְנִים לַכֹּהֲנִים אַרְבַּע וְעֶשְׂרִים מַתְּנוֹת כְּהֻנָּה שֶׁכָּתַבְתִּי לָכֶם בַּתּוֹרָה, וְאִינוּן אָמְרִין לֵיהּ עַל אִלֵּין דְּבֵי נְשִׂיאָה דַּהֲווֹ נָסְבִין כּוֹלָּא. בֵּית הַמֶּלֶךְ הַאֲזִינוּ כִּי לָכֶם הַמִּשְׁפָּט, שֶׁלָּכֶם הָיָה, (דברים יח, ג): וְזֶה יִהְיֶה מִשְׁפַּט הַכֹּהֲנִים, לְפִיכָךְ לָכֶם וַעֲלֵיכֶם מִדַּת הַדִּין נֶהְפָּכֶת. שָׁמַע רַבִּי וְכָעַס, בְּפַתֵּי רַמְשָׁא סְלֵיק רֵישׁ לָקִישׁ שָׁאֵיל שְׁלָמֵיהּ דְּרַבִּי וּפַיְּסֵי עֲלוֹהִי דְּיוֹסֵי מְעוֹנָאָה, אָמַר לוֹ רַבִּי, צְרִיכִין אָנוּ לְהַחֲזִיק טוֹבָה לְאֻמּוֹת הָעוֹלָם, שֶׁהֵן מַכְנִיסִין מוּמָסִין לְבָתֵּי טְרַטְיָאוֹת וּלְבָתֵּי קַרְקְסָאוֹת שֶׁלָּהֶן וּמְשַׂחֲקִין בָּהֶם כְּדֵי שֶׁלֹא יִהְיוּ מְשִׂיחִין אֵלּוּ עִם אֵלּוּ וְיָבוֹאוּ לִידֵי קְטָטָה בְּטֵלָה, יוֹסֵי מְעוֹנָאָה אָמַר מִלָּה דְּאוֹרָיְיתָא וְאַקְפַּדְתְּ עֲלוֹהִי, אָמַר לוֹ וְיוֹדֵעַ הוּא בְּדִבְרֵי תוֹרָה כְּלוּם, אָמַר לוֹ הֵן. אֲמַר לֵיהּ וְאוּלְפַן קַבֵּיל, אֲמַר לֵיהּ אֵין. וְאִי שָׁאֵלְנָא לֵיהּ מְגִיִּיב, אֲמַר לֵיהּ אֵין, אִם כֵּן יִסַּק לְהָכָא, וּסְלֵיק לְגַבֵּיהּ, אֲמַר לֵיהּ מַהוּ דִּכְתִיב: הִנֵּה כָּל הַמּשֵׁל עָלַיִךָ יִמְשֹׁל לֵאמֹר כְּאִמָּה בִּתָּהּ. אֲמַר לֵיהּ כַּבַּת כֵּן אִמָּהּ, כַּדּוֹר כֵּן נָשִׂיא, כַּמִּזְבֵּחַ כֵּן כֹּהֲנָיו. הָכָא אָמְרֵי לְפוּם גִּנְּתָא גַּנָּנָא. אָמַר לוֹ רֵישׁ לָקִישׁ עַד כַּדּוּן לָא חֲסֵלִית מִן מְפַיְּסֵיהּ עַל הָדָא וְאַתָּה מַיְיתֵי לָן אוֹחֲרִי, עִקָּרוֹ שֶׁל דָּבָר הִנֵּה כָּל הַמּשֵׁל מַהוּ, אֲמַר לֵיהּ לֵית תּוֹרְתָא עֲנִישָׁא עַד דִּבְרַתָּהּ בְּעִיטָא, לֵית אִתְּתָא זָנְיָא עַד דִּבְרַתָּהּ זָנְיָא. אָמְרוּ לֵיהּ אִם כֵּן לֵאָה אִמֵּנוּ זוֹנָה הָיְתָה, אָמַר לָהֶם (בראשית ל, טז): וַתֵּצֵא לִקְרָאתוֹ וגו', יָצָאת מְקֻשֶּׁטֶת כְּזוֹנָה, לְפִיכָךְ וַתֵּצֵא דִינָה בַּת לֵאָה.

  והשיב לית תורתא נגיחה כו' כלו' אין פרה נוגחת שאין בתה בועטת והוא משל לומר דאין הכי נמי שאין אשה מזנה שאין בתה כמותה. והקשה עליו א"כ לאה אמנו זונה היתה דכיון דכתיב ותצא דינה כו' שהיה קצת פריצות שיצתה אנה ואנה עד שראה אותה שכם. א"כ גם לאה היה בה פריצות והשיב אה"נ הוה בה צד פריצות (יפ"ת):

   

  see also medresh cleary used in negativ connotation

  רַבִּי נְחֶמְיָה בְּשֵׁם רַבִּי אָבוּן אָמַר חִמְּסָה בְּפָנָיו. וְרַבָּנָן אָמְרֵי אַרְבַּע מִדּוֹת נֶאֶמְרוּ בְּנָשִׁים, גַּרְגְּרָנִיּוֹת, צַיְּתָנִיּוֹת, עַצְלָנִיּוֹת, קַנְאָנִיּוֹת. גַּרְגְּרָנִיּוֹת, מֵחַוָּה (בראשית ג, ו): וַתִּקַּח מִפִּרְיוֹ וַתֹּאכַל. צַיְּתָנִיּוֹת (בראשית יח, י): וְשָׂרָה שֹׁמַעַת. עַצְלָנִיּוֹת (בראשית יח, ו): מַהֲרִי שְׁלשׁ סְאִים קֶמַח סֹלֶת. קַנְאָנִיּוֹת, דִּכְתִיב (בראשית ל, א): וַתְּקַנֵּא רָחֵל בַּאֲחוֹתָהּ. רַבִּי יְהוּדָה בַּר נְחֶמְיָה אָמַר אַף אִסְטְטָנִיּוֹת וְדַבְּרָנִיּוֹת. אִסְטְטָנִיּוֹת וַתֹּאמֶר שָׂרַי אֶל אַבְרָם חֲמָסִי עָלֶיךָ. וְדַבְּרָנִיּוֹת (במדבר יב, א): וַתְּדַבֵּר מִרְיָם וְאַהֲרֹן בְּמשֶׁה. רַבִּי לֵוִי אָמַר אַף גַּנָּבִיּוֹת, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (בראשית לא, יט): וַתִּגְנֹב רָחֵל אֶת הַתְּרָפִים. יוֹצְאָנִיּוֹת (בראשית לד, א): וַתֵּצֵא דִינָה. רַבִּי תַּנְחוּמָא אָמַר בְּשֵׁם רַבִּי חִיָּא רַבָּה וְרַבִּי בֶּרֶכְיָה אָמַר בְּשֵׁם רַבִּי חִיָּא, כָּל מִי שֶׁהִרְתִּיק אַחַר מִדַּת הַדִּין לֹא יָצָא שָׁפוּי מִתַּחַת יָדֶיהָ, רְאוּיָה הָיְתָה שָׂרָה לְהַגִּיעַ לְשָׁנָיו שֶׁל אַבְרָהָם, וְעַל יְדֵי שֶׁאָמְרָה (בראשית טז, ה): יִשְׁפֹּט ה' בֵּינִי וּבֵינֶיךָ, נִמְנְעוּ מֵחַיֶּיהָ שְׁלשִׁים וּשְׁמוֹנֶה שָׁנָה. כְּתִיב (בראשית טז, ד): וַיָּבֹא אֶל הָגָר וַתַּהַר, וּמַה תַּלְמוּד לוֹמַר (בראשית טז, יא): הִנָּךְ הָרָה וְיֹלַדְתְּ בֵּן, אֶלָּא מְלַמֵּד שֶׁהִכְנִיסָה בָּהּ שָׂרָה עַיִן רָעָה וְהִפִּילָה עֻבָּרָהּ. אָמַ

   

  see also medresh tanchuma

  וַתֵּצֵא דִינָה בַּת לֵאָה. זֶה שֶׁאָמַר הַכָּתוּב: כָּל כְּבוּדָּה בַת מֶלֶךְ פְּנִימָה (תהלים מה, יד). אָמַר רַבִּי יוֹסִי, כְּשֶׁהָאִשָּׁה מַצְנַעַת אֶת עַצְמָהּ בְּתוֹךְ הַבַּיִת, רְאוּיָה לְהִנָּשֵׂא לְכֹהֵן גָּדוֹל וְתַעֲמִיד כֹּהֲנִים גְּדוֹלִים, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: כָּל כְּבוּדָּה וְגוֹ'. אִם תְּכַבֵּד עַצְמָהּ בְּתוֹךְ הַבַּיִת, מִמִּשְׁבְּצוֹת זָהָב לְבוּשָׁהּ, תִּנָּשֵׂא לְמִי שֶׁכָּתוּב בָּהֶן וְשִׁבַּצְתָּ הַכְּתֹנֶת שֵׁשׁ.

   

  See also daas torah rav yerucham levovoitz ztl that even though everything was leshem shamayim by dina and leah there was still a taana

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• S

  Shuli -5 years ago

  Loved the class

  Hay, first of all thanks...

  You said in the Torah Ohr class that Yaacov was trying to fix Eisovs through his makif, ans by that to reach תוהו lights in this world... but Eisov wasnt ready... 

  The question is, if Dina was able to fix Eisov, why REALLY  didnt Yaacov give her to Eisov...? It would comlete the entire perpose of Yaacov with sending mallochim...

  Thanks alot!

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• M

  Mim -5 years ago

  So if Leah is from the hidden world why would she be the outgoing one?

  wouldnt it be Rochel?

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• E

  Eli -6 years ago

  After watching the above class in which you make a wonderful point about going out and achieving ones potential instead of choosing the safe option and holding back. 

  However i am disturbed by a number of points that you make. 

  1) You paint Yakov as a close minded, living in a bubble, who didn't know, didn't want or hold of Dinah's potential, locked her up and didn't envision her capabilities, now this sounds very true in 2018 but how can you say such a thing about the heiliger Yaakov Avinu? Who is before all the rishonim, achronim, amoraim, tanaim, neviim, Moshe Rabbeinu, who we struggle to understand, as if he is one of us. 

  Comparable to this is something that Reb Chaim Soloveitzik zt"l once replied to someone, who told him that the reason Yakov was saying krias shema and Yosef wasnt, is because he wanted to chanel the tremendous love that he felt at that reunifing moment to the Aibishter, said Reb Chaim "don't put your emotions in the avos" as if to say if Yakov wanted to, he could have such love without Yosef ( as it happens the maharal says this peshat, but the maharal is big enough) and went on to explain a different reason. 

  2) The netziv in haamek davar clearly says on the pasuk of Leah going out to Yaakov that "even though it wasn't tznius, Leah rather fargin her kavod and not embarrass Rochel by Yakov walking into her tent and then out to Leah" clearly not a positive outlook on her outgoing self-nature?

  3) Is there any mareh makom between yourself and Yaakov Avinu who says this (besides the Rashi's, we can easily say that she was indeed a daughter of her mother who "went out" but Leah used it very positively whereas Dinah didn't, so even though the place Rashi brings where leah went out, is a fantastic going out and showing of ratzon for good reasons (and the Aibishter rewarded her for this), dinah didn't use it correctly like the poshut pshat in the torah according to rashi.

   

  Eagerly anticipating your response.

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• SG

  Shmuel G -6 years ago

  I would like to point out the psychological change in Dina before the traumatic event and after the traumatic event. Before, she was outgoing, friendly and free-spirited with a lot of energy willing and ready to go out and get to know and take care of the 'daughters of the land'. Afterward, she didn't want to leave i.e. developed fears, and no more is mentioned of her, i.e she became internalized. I think this is one of the typical symptoms of someone who experienced sexual trauma. My question is; why is it mentioned that Yaakov was punished and not that she was punished or suffered, she obviously suffered and what about the opinion that says that yaaneha doesn't mean raped but not in the ordinary manner?

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• SG

  Shmuel G -6 years ago

  I really enjoyed this weeks parsha class. As you know, there is a modern hebrew term "yatzanit" based on the story of Dina and it's being misunderstood which means prostitute. I am very happy to hear this interpretation. I would like to have a better understanding concerning all the times sisters were married, especially knowing that the avot and shevatim kept the torah and the rabbinical enactments and I believe that one of the 7 mitzvot bnei noach includes brother and sister relationships. In that case Shimon marrying Dina was assur completely by all standards? thank you

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• M

  Meir -6 years ago

  I just finished the speech on dina and I want to tell you prob. the best speech I ever heard. thank you.

   

  Just wondering why couldnt she transform shchem in the little time she had?

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• I

  Isaac -6 years ago

  amazing lesson

  One thing I learn from all of this:

  We often think we know reasons. Dinah was violated, why? Of course, because she went out! Here we see, that is not the case, at least not always. Dinah had good intentions, she did the right thing, but her journey was destined to be different. In fact, according to Rashi it was not a punishment for her, but for Yaakov.

  Wow. We do not always know the reason for things. 

  As I heard from you once about Ruth. Boaz died the day after he married Ruth. I am sure everyone said: Of course, he married a woman from Moav! That's what he gets. But As we know that was the furthest thing from the truth!

   

   

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• MZ

  Mendel Zilberberg -6 years ago

  Kudos

  The Shiur is both informative and humbling.  The shiur illustrates that Bereshis (contrary to the way we are taught) is not a series of disparate stories or even disparate lessons, but begins to shed light on the interconectivity of the Torah, its depth, and how the lessons it teaches are tangible lessons from which all of us can learn, irrespective of our particular life circunstances.

  In addition, we see that what we (possibly) see as negative by default may be positive or more deeply may be neither or both, meaning that circumstances are what they are and it is up to us to decide how we deal with them - negatively or positively - 

  Maybe most importantly is highlighting the imperative to see that each neshama has its own mission, obstacles, challenges and metrics of accomplishment

   

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• B

  Baila -6 years ago

  There are really no words to describe how we were blown away with this weeks shiur. It was beyond amazing.
  
  Rabbi Jacobson’s depiction of Dina and her desire to spread belief in Hashem opens vistas of beauty in Torah... Rashi ‘s famous words take on unbelievable depth and newness to us...and the awesomeness of how all the Rashi’s come together.
  
  Additionally, I must say that the idea that Dina could have changed a Rasha like Eisav, shows us how much influence we can all have on those around us. I’m so uplifted and inspired.  
  
  I’m so grateful to Hashem that although I was running to the airport it was WELL worth spending the morning in the “cocoon” of Ohr Hachaims heavenly tent...

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• B

  Baila -6 years ago

  There are really no words to describe how we were blown away with this weeks shiur. It was beyond amazing.
  
  Rabbi Jacobson’s depiction of Dina and her desire to spread belief in Hashem opens vistas of beauty in Torah... Rashi ‘s famous words take on unbelievable depth and newness to us...and the awesomeness of how all the Rashi’s come together.
  
  Additionally, I must say that the idea that Dina could have changed a Rasha like Eisav, shows us how much influence we can all have on those around us. I’m so uplifted and inspired.  
  
  I’m so grateful to Hashem that although I was running to the airport it was WELL worth spending the morning in the “cocoon” of Ohr Hachaims heavenly tent...

  Reply to this comment.Flag this comment.

• B

  Baila -6 years ago

  There are really no words to describe how we were blown away with this weeks shiur. It was beyond amazing.
  
  Rabbi Jacobson’s depiction of Dina and her desire to spread belief in Hashem opens vistas of beauty in Torah... Rashi ‘s famous words take on unbelievable depth and newness to us...and the awesomeness of how all the Rashi’s come together.
  
  Additionally, I must say that the idea that Dina could have changed a Rasha like Eisav, shows us how much influence we can all have on those around us. I’m so uplifted and inspired.  
  
  I’m so grateful to Hashem that although I was running to the airport it was WELL worth spending the morning in the “cocoon” of Ohr Hachaims heavenly tent...

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• B

  Baila -6 years ago

  There are really no words to describe how we were blown away with this weeks shiur. It was beyond amazing.
  
  Rabbi Jacobson’s depiction of Dina and her desire to spread belief in Hashem opens vistas of beauty in Torah... Rashi ‘s famous words take on unbelievable depth and newness to us...and the awesomeness of how all the Rashi’s come together.
  
  Additionally, I must say that the idea that Dina could have changed a Rasha like Eisav, shows us how much influence we can all have on those around us. I’m so uplifted and inspired.  
  
  I’m so grateful to Hashem that although I was running to the airport it was WELL worth spending the morning in the “cocoon” of Ohr Hachaims heavenly tent...

  Reply to this comment.Flag this comment.

• B

  Baila -6 years ago

  There are really no words to describe how we were blown away with this weeks shiur. It was beyond amazing.
  
  Rabbi Jacobson’s depiction of Dina and her desire to spread belief in Hashem opens vistas of beauty in Torah... Rashi ‘s famous words take on unbelievable depth and newness to us...and the awesomeness of how all the Rashi’s come together.
  
  Additionally, I must say that the idea that Dina could have changed a Rasha like Eisav, shows us how much influence we can all have on those around us. I’m so uplifted and inspired.  
  
  I’m so grateful to Hashem that although I was running to the airport it was WELL worth spending the morning in the “cocoon” of Ohr Hachaims heavenly tent...

  Reply to this comment.Flag this comment.

  • K

    Kalman -6 years ago

    Awesome lesson, as always.

    Only newly raised questions remained unanswered.

    1-If, based on the fact that Dina had the ability to influence and to transform Eisav, why could she not do anything about Schem? After all, for this purpose she went to the city.

    2-If the cause of the whole tragedy is Jacob, why did Dean suffer?

    3-If based on the principle of Dina as Lea, then why was Lea allowed to refuse from the mission to transform Eisav, and Dina was punished for this, although not on her own will?

    4-How does all this correspond to the main principle of the creation of the universe - a measure for measure?

    The lack of answers to these questions simplifies the brilliance of this lesson.

     

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Vayishlach Women's Class

Rabbi YY Jacobson

• November 20, 2018
• |
• 12 Kislev 5779
• |
• 5397 views

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